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Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Marielle#942949Yesterday at 10:21 AM | |
Joined: Sep 2023 Location: six feet under my rock Rongbai stranger | |
 Rongbai stranger Joined: Sep 2023 Location: six feet under my rock | Originally Posted by Marielle To summarize what has been said in the topic under discussion, in my opinion, these are: 1. Completely change Tav's facial expressions. No victim facial expressions. No fear, resentment, or pain. This is mandatory, the game currently contains trigger scenes of violence that traumatize people. 2. Make it possible to choose between romantic kisses (as the patch 5 kiss was) for those who want "gentle" and harder ones ("let it hurt"). A very good option was suggested by Ametris earlier in the " Astarion Romance Improvement" thread - you could not tie the kissing scenes to a single choice during the night after Ascension, but make two lines "Kiss me gently" and "Kiss me roughly". Some will be able to choose their favorite option, some will be able to use all of them, then when they want. 3. Give Tav the ability to touch Astarion, change Tav's animation and body language, not just facial expressions. As we found out, even for D/s this isn't necessary, it's just an option that doesn't suit most AA players. It doesn't suit me personally at all. Tav touched Astarion all the time before, why would Astarion not want it now? It looks like we are once again being "prevented" from loving Astarion by covering this idea with just one, and not the most common, D/s option. +1! Originally Posted by Marielle My eternal question, and the main heartache of this romance, is what is the point of this check if we have no way to respond to it? Yes, and that is a *very* good question, not in the least because I believe this might be the *only* place in the game where a successful Read Thoughts check doesn't lead to a new dialogue option being unlocked in the conversation. I would be intersted to see if there is some hidden reply burried within the parsed game dialogue that just doesn't fire up in-game, OR if this was intentional. Sadly, it does feel like the latter might be the case, as it would neatly fall into the trend of taking agency away from the Player where AA is concerned: "No, he doesn't love you, he thinks you're degrading yourself, and you're not allowed to react" "No, you don't love it, you are terrified of him, and you're not allowed to feel differently" "No, you can't agree to this, he's toxic, you WILL be thought a lesson, and you're not allowed to decide for yourself" *edit for phrasing* Last edited by Rongbai; Yesterday at 01:46 PM. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#942953Yesterday at 02:17 PM | |
Joined: May 2024 S starryophonic journeyman | |
starryophonic journeyman S Joined: May 2024 | Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense. And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion starryophonic#942958Yesterday at 05:27 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 LiryFire member | |
LiryFire member Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by starryophonic but maybe I'm just a freak? Honestly, the last thing I want to do is ask myself that question seriously when having a romance with a killer vampire. Astarion Dark Lord that the player likes (since they choose that character) + February 14 + new kiss + bite + knees I personally feel nothing but shame and hurt, from the Tav reaction. It's an intimate thing, it's a kiss, I'm being shown something intimate and the “right reaction” to it. See, this is how the majority of people react to him - this is how it should be. How many people kill Astarion without much delay because they don't like him? Quite a few I think, do we need to listen to them making content for Astarion, or is it better to listen to who likes the character. Well, more I'm offended from Larian attitude. You're adults and making a game for adults, was it really such a complicated scheme? If, of course, someane in team Larian is guided not by logic but by Tik Tok, fanfics, trends, then understandable. Astarion is dangerous immediately, Astarion is also dangerous as a spawn, “I can cure this manipulative person with the power of love” is a dangerous idea irl. Morality irl “as it should be” is not applicable and is a double standard. It's amazing how a character's reaction to something intimate can be used to make a negative attitude about the entire work of so many people. Last edited by LiryFire; Yesterday at 06:00 PM. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Marielle#942959Yesterday at 05:42 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 LiryFire member | |
LiryFire member Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by Marielle To summarize what has been said in the topic under discussion, in my opinion, these are: 1. Completely change Tav's facial expressions. No victim facial expressions. No fear, resentment, or pain. This is mandatory, the game currently contains trigger scenes of violence that traumatize people. 2. Make it possible to choose between romantic kisses (as the patch 5 kiss was) for those who want "gentle" and harder ones ("let it hurt"). A very good option was suggested by Ametris earlier in the " Astarion Romance Improvement" thread - you could not tie the kissing scenes to a single choice during the night after Ascension, but make two lines "Kiss me gently" and "Kiss me roughly". Some will be able to choose their favorite option, some will be able to use all of them, then when they want. 3. Give Tav the ability to touch Astarion, change Tav's animation and body language, not just facial expressions. As we found out, even for D/s this isn't necessary, it's just an option that doesn't suit most AA players. It doesn't suit me personally at all. Tav touched Astarion all the time before, why would Astarion not want it now? It looks like we are once again being "prevented" from loving Astarion by covering this idea with just one, and not the most common, D/s option. + 1 |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion starryophonic#9429857 hours ago | |
Joined: Jan 2024 M Metarra journeyman | |
Metarra journeyman M Joined: Jan 2024 | Originally Posted by starryophonic Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense. And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense. This is what I've been thinking of lately. People who hate on AA accuse him of the same things spawn Astarion is capable of doing and has done. I pointed out on the BG3 subreddit that both UA and AA call you pet, but then they claim AA is being sarcastic or less respectful than UA is being at the drow twins. And I just don't see it. People jump down AA's throat for calling them pet, but there's no option to do that to UA? Astarion doesn't like when you argue with him or don't see things from his point of view, he never has through the whole game. Let's also point out the fact that there are NO argumentative dialogue options for UA. All the argumentative dialogue options are for AA alone. Spawn Astarion (UA) for the entire game has been sharp with replies to disagreement or any opinion that doesn't align with his opinion. I think AA and UA are more alike than people realize, especially the AA haters. AA is UA without breaks, without an act, without a filter, and AA is just completely 100% raw Astarion. I think UA just tailors his behavior and words to be acceptable to people, while AA completely abandons that effort. You can even get AA-like behavior from spawn Astarion in the previous acts if you're mean to him or say things he obviously wouldn't like. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Metarra#9429866 hours ago | |
Joined: May 2024 S starryophonic journeyman | |
starryophonic journeyman S Joined: May 2024 | Originally Posted by Metarra Originally Posted by starryophonic Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense. And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense. This is what I've been thinking of lately. People who hate on AA accuse him of the same things spawn Astarion is capable of doing and has done. I pointed out on the BG3 subreddit that both UA and AA call you pet, but then they claim AA is being sarcastic or less respectful than UA is being at the drow twins. And I just don't see it. People jump down AA's throat for calling them pet, but there's no option to do that to UA? Astarion doesn't like when you argue with him or don't see things from his point of view, he never has through the whole game. Let's also point out the fact that there are NO argumentative dialogue options for UA. All the argumentative dialogue options are for AA alone. Spawn Astarion (UA) for the entire game has been sharp with replies to disagreement or any opinion that doesn't align with his opinion. I think AA and UA are more alike than people realize, especially the AA haters. AA is UA without breaks, without an act, without a filter, and AA is just completely 100% raw Astarion. I think UA just tailors his behavior and words to be acceptable to people, while AA completely abandons that effort. You can even get AA-like behavior from spawn Astarion in the previous acts if you're mean to him or say things he obviously wouldn't like. Honestly, and we can move this discussion over to Marielle's thread in Story Discussion is we need to, but the fact that UA will be angry if you killed Cazador without him, saying you made a decision for him, AND the fact that if you break up with him after rejecting ascension he tells you he gave that up for you, tells me all I need to know. Astarion wants to ascend. Making him reject it isn't "fixing him;" it's just taking away his access to a fundamental part of himself, and that might be scary to admit because that part of him is pretty sinister. I mean everyone has the right to play the way they want but to me, not allowing him to ascend AND staying in a relationship with him after is basically the equivalent of saying, "You know that thing you said you wanted more than anything, multiple times? And you know how I said I'd help you get it? Well, it turns out I was only saying that because I wanted you to keep smooching me, and now I'm not only NOT going to help you, but I'm also going to shame you for wanting it and do everything I can to get you to stay with me despite the fact that I essentially strung you along because I know what you want better than you do somehow." It's a video game, not real life, but if I were really Tav, I would feel like I should either help him ascend, or stay the hell out of his way. It's not like he hasn't made his wishes clear. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#9429945 hours ago | |
Joined: Dec 2023 Marielle enthusiast | |
Marielle enthusiast Joined: Dec 2023 | Originally Posted by Zayir Everyone interprets this differently, and there is no answer on this. It's ambiguous. Some people do like it, some don't like it, like with everything what's in the game. Maybe Astarion sees himself beneath you, because he thinks you would be worth a better or nicer partner. So he thinks you're too good for him. "He will always think that he is beneath you if you continue to stay with him." was Larian's translation in the language I played it (though I prefer another interpretation). Or the opposite, maybe Astarion sees you degrading yourself while partnered, because a) you will be his consort (to degrade means to lower in rank or status), and not on the same level as he is, who sees himself as the one who will rule. A consort will never be equal to the regent (e.g. see Queen Victoria and her consort). In the UA route, he uses the word "equal" (I think there is a reason for it, why he uses it), and in the AA you will not be equal. or b) you will be his spawn, he can control you, when the tadpole is gone. The insight check just shows you, where the relationship will lead: inequality. you are his. He has power over you. And the player, who doesn't want this or the risk, that it could happen, can stop it. It's just a way out, as there are many of these in the game, in almost each romance scene, you can stop it. Like with Harleep, you can still say no and stop it (there is also most times no option to discuss things, it's just a way out). The scene or the consequence is also not to everyone's taste. Also in the first romance scene, you can choose to stop it, if you don't want to sleep with him. The game warns you that it can be not to your taste and just asks the player: "Do you really want this?" Yes, I have a similar translation, and that's what causes the burning desire to prove otherwise. Or at least SHOW him the truth, rather than just one act of agreeing with it. I think that becoming consort doesn't mean a lowering of status (Tav didn't have any status before), becoming someone's wife/husband gives us a new social role, a new status in society, but this status is more to show the unity of the couple, to formalize the fact that you are together. Tav is no longer just a "hero" who can date someone, love someone, the new status emphasizes commitment to one specific person, Astarion. And Astarion can't have another consort either - it's cementing the bond, taking the relationship to the highest level - the level of unity of the couple. Yes, a consort is not equal to a regent, but there is nothing humiliating about it, no one can be equal to a king or emperor - it's just a tradition of the monarch form of government, so far in the game Astarion hasn't started to rule anyone, but being an aristocrat by birth, he knows the traditions and names his lover according to the tribute of tradition. Perhaps the use of the word "equal" in the UA route is an additional "authorial emphasis" to make it clear where you would be an equal and where you would not. Astarion needs the ability to control Tav first and foremost in order to trust, to know that Tav cannot betray him, and Tav, in agreeing to this, wants to prove it to him by deed. Tav knows that he will never abandon Astarion, and let Astarion get his "official confirmation" of that to gain his ultimate trust in that way. With Harleep yes, the usual way out, it's a good thing the game hasn't yet introduced the obligatory incubus rape of Tav in the form of a cutscene where Tav will suddenly find themselves naked, unarmed, with the face of a victim, and without the ability to throw at least an Athletics check to try to strangle Harleep with their bare hands. But with Astarion, it's an important meaningful romantic scene, a scene that determines the couple's future, it's kind of on a completely different plane than another offer to hook up from some NPS or companion. Even if the author of this romance scene doesn't see the difference between these things, players do, and the complete impossibility of roleplay in this scene may well be frustrating and dumbfounding on first playthrough. The player is more likely to draw parallels to other significant romance scenes where there were different options for roleplay and reactions (the same ability to open consciousness), rather than some brash, albeit unusual, but still just one of the regularly encountered enemies in the game. Astarion could have explained the necessity of the kneeling with a single line like, "It's important to me," which would immediately hint to the untrained player at the sacredness of the ritual, removing the problems with getting through that scene, or at least Astarion could have seen what it really meant to Tav if Tav had been able to open his consciousness at that moment. And at this point, alas, everything leads us to this: Originally Posted by Rongbai "No, he doesn't love you, he thinks you're degrading yourself, and you're not allowed to react" "No, you don't love it, you are terrified of him, and you're not allowed to feel differently" "No, you can't agree to this, he's toxic, you WILL be thought a lesson, and you're not allowed to decide for yourself" In my playthrough, this place was really the only one where a successful check doesn't unlock a new dialog option. I don't know if anyone has been able to find any other place like this in the game, but it seems like it just doesn't exist. Special to Astarion and special to us. Exclusive rails - enjoy the ride. Next stop is Victim of Violence, patch 6. Instead of an RPG, it's a sort of "novella", a "short story" whose characters are Astarion and Tav. Only instead of our character in this story, it's another character invented by someone else, and we have no choice but to go along with someone else's headcanon. At the same time, the game provides an "option" that makes all Astarion-loving players simply angry or bewildered - "kick in the balls". It's just annoying to mention this one in a post even, but in game our eyes have to see this "creativity" every time. Maybe some of the modders will "clean it up" and remove it from the game so that the rails are at least just clean rails, without... I don't know who might be interested in this kind of "roleplay" for, any suggestion to that effect might trigger a reaction along the lines of "Ahh, you're insulting people for using the game feature provided!", so probably for those who like to test the game and just pick all the lines in a row to see what happens. Ok, dear author, you have a very specific "humor" for the "initiated", or for anyone else out there, but why not, if you decided to write THIS, do something for normal, adequate roleplay as well? Originally Posted by LiryFire If, of course, someane in team Larian is guided not by logic but by Tik Tok, fanfics, trends, then understandable. Astarion is dangerous immediately, Astarion is also dangerous as a spawn, “I can cure this manipulative person with the power of love” is a dangerous idea irl. Morality irl “as it should be” is not applicable and is a double standard. It's amazing how a character's reaction to something intimate can be used to make a negative attitude about the entire work of so many people. This is truly amazing. What started out as fanfic ended up as scenes of sadism. From "I want your body" and "I like degrading myself" to the fear, pain, and hurt on the victim's face. The saddest thing is when a person playing the game starts to think: "Maybe I'm just a freak?" because of the scripted arbitrariness of some "author" who decided to "show their story", laying rails through the hearts of players, to destroy everything good that was in the game, to destroy the wonderful, multifaceted and loving image of Astarion, to reduce him to some "model of an abuser and sad*st" for the sake of hype, promotion of some activist views, their own "vision", whatever. "Favorite characters are always the easiest source of emotional engagement for any player." This is a quote from a lecture by one of Larian's authors. This lecture is not directly related to Astarion or BG3, I will put it under a spoiler just as a confirmation of the quote. What should a player get THAT kind of emotional interaction for? Larian, please fix this. Fix the sad*stic kisses of patch 6. You've won BAFTA, that's great. The majority (living in Britain) of players like everything. Please don't leave it to the "minority" to have the game remain in their hearts and memories as the worst romantic scenario in their entire gaming experience. Allow those who think, feel and perceive the game not according to someone else's narrative, but as they saw and perceived it before, to stay in the game and not be "victimized". "Victim of scripted arbitrariness" is not what a player should be in a game that has won every possible award and honor. We trusted you, we supported you, we voted for you once before, we deserve at least basic human treatment. Aeterna Amantes. Lovers forever, until the world falls down. My Love Is Cancelled. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion LiryFire#9429991 hour ago | |
Joined: Feb 2024 KiraMira journeyman | |
 KiraMira journeyman Joined: Feb 2024 | Originally Posted by LiryFire Well, more I'm offended from Larian attitude. You're adults and making a game for adults, was it really such a complicated scheme? "Wants nice thing to see". Yes, you're right at the heart of it. Whenever I changed Tav's clothes with colors or combination I always went to kiss Astarion after. Why? Because it was the best animation to look at while I decided if the clothing and makeup matched. If my character design was any good. Now it's only a reminder of how my own RP does not matter. What is the point of dressing up my character to match their personality when I'm not the one deciding my character persona? I can choose everywhere else, the game builds the story of my character through my character action and dialog, the persona I have decided. Now the romance is steered so hard into another character that there is no room for any other interpetation. The kisses is a vital part of the romance. It should be something you want to see again and again, something that makes you smile while it happens. That reminds you of why you chose Astarion and increase the bond you feel between Astarion and Tav. Letting you build the romance up in your mind as the story goes on. You should feel good because romance is something you would feel good about. Why then are these kisses made in to a punishment? |
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