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Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Marielle#94294920/05/24 10:21 AM | |
Joined: Sep 2023 Location: six feet under my rock Rongbai stranger | |
 Rongbai stranger Joined: Sep 2023 Location: six feet under my rock | Originally Posted by Marielle To summarize what has been said in the topic under discussion, in my opinion, these are: 1. Completely change Tav's facial expressions. No victim facial expressions. No fear, resentment, or pain. This is mandatory, the game currently contains trigger scenes of violence that traumatize people. 2. Make it possible to choose between romantic kisses (as the patch 5 kiss was) for those who want "gentle" and harder ones ("let it hurt"). A very good option was suggested by Ametris earlier in the " Astarion Romance Improvement" thread - you could not tie the kissing scenes to a single choice during the night after Ascension, but make two lines "Kiss me gently" and "Kiss me roughly". Some will be able to choose their favorite option, some will be able to use all of them, then when they want. 3. Give Tav the ability to touch Astarion, change Tav's animation and body language, not just facial expressions. As we found out, even for D/s this isn't necessary, it's just an option that doesn't suit most AA players. It doesn't suit me personally at all. Tav touched Astarion all the time before, why would Astarion not want it now? It looks like we are once again being "prevented" from loving Astarion by covering this idea with just one, and not the most common, D/s option. +1! Originally Posted by Marielle My eternal question, and the main heartache of this romance, is what is the point of this check if we have no way to respond to it? Yes, and that is a *very* good question, not in the least because I believe this might be the *only* place in the game where a successful Read Thoughts check doesn't lead to a new dialogue option being unlocked in the conversation. I would be intersted to see if there is some hidden reply burried within the parsed game dialogue that just doesn't fire up in-game, OR if this was intentional. Sadly, it does feel like the latter might be the case, as it would neatly fall into the trend of taking agency away from the Player where AA is concerned: "No, he doesn't love you, he thinks you're degrading yourself, and you're not allowed to react" "No, you don't love it, you are terrified of him, and you're not allowed to feel differently" "No, you can't agree to this, he's toxic, you WILL be thought a lesson, and you're not allowed to decide for yourself" *edit for phrasing* Last edited by Rongbai; 20/05/24 01:46 PM. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#94295320/05/24 02:17 PM | |
Joined: May 2024 S starryophonic journeyman | |
 starryophonic journeyman S Joined: May 2024 | Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense. And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion starryophonic#94295820/05/24 05:27 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 LiryFire member | |
LiryFire member Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by starryophonic but maybe I'm just a freak? Honestly, the last thing I want to do is ask myself that question seriously when having a romance with a killer vampire. Astarion Dark Lord that the player likes (since they choose that character) + February 14 + new kiss + bite + knees I personally feel nothing but shame and hurt, from the Tav reaction. It's an intimate thing, it's a kiss, I'm being shown something intimate and the “right reaction” to it. See, this is how the majority of people react to him - this is how it should be. How many people kill Astarion without much delay because they don't like him? Quite a few I think, do we need to listen to them making content for Astarion, or is it better to listen to who likes the character. Well, more I'm offended from Larian attitude. You're adults and making a game for adults, was it really such a complicated scheme? If, of course, someane in team Larian is guided not by logic but by Tik Tok, fanfics, trends, then understandable. Astarion is dangerous immediately, Astarion is also dangerous as a spawn, “I can cure this manipulative person with the power of love” is a dangerous idea irl. Morality irl “as it should be” is not applicable and is a double standard. It's amazing how a character's reaction to something intimate can be used to make a negative attitude about the entire work of so many people. Last edited by LiryFire; 20/05/24 06:00 PM. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Marielle#94295920/05/24 05:42 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 LiryFire member | |
LiryFire member Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by Marielle To summarize what has been said in the topic under discussion, in my opinion, these are: 1. Completely change Tav's facial expressions. No victim facial expressions. No fear, resentment, or pain. This is mandatory, the game currently contains trigger scenes of violence that traumatize people. 2. Make it possible to choose between romantic kisses (as the patch 5 kiss was) for those who want "gentle" and harder ones ("let it hurt"). A very good option was suggested by Ametris earlier in the " Astarion Romance Improvement" thread - you could not tie the kissing scenes to a single choice during the night after Ascension, but make two lines "Kiss me gently" and "Kiss me roughly". Some will be able to choose their favorite option, some will be able to use all of them, then when they want. 3. Give Tav the ability to touch Astarion, change Tav's animation and body language, not just facial expressions. As we found out, even for D/s this isn't necessary, it's just an option that doesn't suit most AA players. It doesn't suit me personally at all. Tav touched Astarion all the time before, why would Astarion not want it now? It looks like we are once again being "prevented" from loving Astarion by covering this idea with just one, and not the most common, D/s option. + 1 |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion starryophonic#94298521/05/24 03:38 PM | |
Joined: Jan 2024 M Metarra journeyman | |
Metarra journeyman M Joined: Jan 2024 | Originally Posted by starryophonic Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense. And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense. This is what I've been thinking of lately. People who hate on AA accuse him of the same things spawn Astarion is capable of doing and has done. I pointed out on the BG3 subreddit that both UA and AA call you pet, but then they claim AA is being sarcastic or less respectful than UA is being at the drow twins. And I just don't see it. People jump down AA's throat for calling them pet, but there's no option to do that to UA? Astarion doesn't like when you argue with him or don't see things from his point of view, he never has through the whole game. Let's also point out the fact that there are NO argumentative dialogue options for UA. All the argumentative dialogue options are for AA alone. Spawn Astarion (UA) for the entire game has been sharp with replies to disagreement or any opinion that doesn't align with his opinion. I think AA and UA are more alike than people realize, especially the AA haters. AA is UA without breaks, without an act, without a filter, and AA is just completely 100% raw Astarion. I think UA just tailors his behavior and words to be acceptable to people, while AA completely abandons that effort. You can even get AA-like behavior from spawn Astarion in the previous acts if you're mean to him or say things he obviously wouldn't like. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Metarra#94298621/05/24 03:57 PM | |
Joined: May 2024 S starryophonic journeyman | |
starryophonic journeyman S Joined: May 2024 | Originally Posted by Metarra Originally Posted by starryophonic Okay, here's something else I just thought about. In the Spawn post-ritual sex scene, Astarion shoves Tav, and their reaction face seems to be pretty neutral, leaning more towards positive. Maybe a little surprised? I just don't get how a light, intimacy-related shove from Spawn Astarion should be treated differently than a similar action from Ascended Astarion (playful biting during a kiss seems roughly equivalent to a little shove during sex in my mind, but maybe I'm just a freak?). Because he's evil now, I guess? What's Ascended Astarion done differently? Talked a little more intensely? Oh, I guess he sacrificed 7k souls. But Spawn Astarion could have also killed those 7k people, and the scene would remain the same, so...make it make sense. And I know this is about the kisses, not the sex scene, but it really strikes me that aside from the biting and kneeling, the actual sex in the Ascendent scene is just regular old sex, no shoving involved. But Spawn gets a shove and all the fans go gaga over their sweet soft baby boy. It just feels like the more I learn about both paths, the less I really see a difference in the character, aside from one has physical power and the other doesn't. If it's really the same character, then the idea that Tav's reaction to the Ascendent kisses is some kind of Larian-imposed punishment for choosing that path makes even less sense. This is what I've been thinking of lately. People who hate on AA accuse him of the same things spawn Astarion is capable of doing and has done. I pointed out on the BG3 subreddit that both UA and AA call you pet, but then they claim AA is being sarcastic or less respectful than UA is being at the drow twins. And I just don't see it. People jump down AA's throat for calling them pet, but there's no option to do that to UA? Astarion doesn't like when you argue with him or don't see things from his point of view, he never has through the whole game. Let's also point out the fact that there are NO argumentative dialogue options for UA. All the argumentative dialogue options are for AA alone. Spawn Astarion (UA) for the entire game has been sharp with replies to disagreement or any opinion that doesn't align with his opinion. I think AA and UA are more alike than people realize, especially the AA haters. AA is UA without breaks, without an act, without a filter, and AA is just completely 100% raw Astarion. I think UA just tailors his behavior and words to be acceptable to people, while AA completely abandons that effort. You can even get AA-like behavior from spawn Astarion in the previous acts if you're mean to him or say things he obviously wouldn't like. Honestly, and we can move this discussion over to Marielle's thread in Story Discussion is we need to, but the fact that UA will be angry if you killed Cazador without him, saying you made a decision for him, AND the fact that if you break up with him after rejecting ascension he tells you he gave that up for you, tells me all I need to know. Astarion wants to ascend. Making him reject it isn't "fixing him;" it's just taking away his access to a fundamental part of himself, and that might be scary to admit because that part of him is pretty sinister. I mean everyone has the right to play the way they want but to me, not allowing him to ascend AND staying in a relationship with him after is basically the equivalent of saying, "You know that thing you said you wanted more than anything, multiple times? And you know how I said I'd help you get it? Well, it turns out I was only saying that because I wanted you to keep smooching me, and now I'm not only NOT going to help you, but I'm also going to shame you for wanting it and do everything I can to get you to stay with me despite the fact that I essentially strung you along because I know what you want better than you do somehow." It's a video game, not real life, but if I were really Tav, I would feel like I should either help him ascend, or stay the hell out of his way. It's not like he hasn't made his wishes clear. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#94299421/05/24 05:41 PM | |
Joined: Dec 2023 Marielle enthusiast | |
Marielle enthusiast Joined: Dec 2023 | Originally Posted by Zayir Everyone interprets this differently, and there is no answer on this. It's ambiguous. Some people do like it, some don't like it, like with everything what's in the game. Maybe Astarion sees himself beneath you, because he thinks you would be worth a better or nicer partner. So he thinks you're too good for him. "He will always think that he is beneath you if you continue to stay with him." was Larian's translation in the language I played it (though I prefer another interpretation). Or the opposite, maybe Astarion sees you degrading yourself while partnered, because a) you will be his consort (to degrade means to lower in rank or status), and not on the same level as he is, who sees himself as the one who will rule. A consort will never be equal to the regent (e.g. see Queen Victoria and her consort). In the UA route, he uses the word "equal" (I think there is a reason for it, why he uses it), and in the AA you will not be equal. or b) you will be his spawn, he can control you, when the tadpole is gone. The insight check just shows you, where the relationship will lead: inequality. you are his. He has power over you. And the player, who doesn't want this or the risk, that it could happen, can stop it. It's just a way out, as there are many of these in the game, in almost each romance scene, you can stop it. Like with Harleep, you can still say no and stop it (there is also most times no option to discuss things, it's just a way out). The scene or the consequence is also not to everyone's taste. Also in the first romance scene, you can choose to stop it, if you don't want to sleep with him. The game warns you that it can be not to your taste and just asks the player: "Do you really want this?" Yes, I have a similar translation, and that's what causes the burning desire to prove otherwise. Or at least SHOW him the truth, rather than just one act of agreeing with it. I think that becoming consort doesn't mean a lowering of status (Tav didn't have any status before), becoming someone's wife/husband gives us a new social role, a new status in society, but this status is more to show the unity of the couple, to formalize the fact that you are together. Tav is no longer just a "hero" who can date someone, love someone, the new status emphasizes commitment to one specific person, Astarion. And Astarion can't have another consort either - it's cementing the bond, taking the relationship to the highest level - the level of unity of the couple. Yes, a consort is not equal to a regent, but there is nothing humiliating about it, no one can be equal to a king or emperor - it's just a tradition of the monarch form of government, so far in the game Astarion hasn't started to rule anyone, but being an aristocrat by birth, he knows the traditions and names his lover according to the tribute of tradition. Perhaps the use of the word "equal" in the UA route is an additional "authorial emphasis" to make it clear where you would be an equal and where you would not. Astarion needs the ability to control Tav first and foremost in order to trust, to know that Tav cannot betray him, and Tav, in agreeing to this, wants to prove it to him by deed. Tav knows that he will never abandon Astarion, and let Astarion get his "official confirmation" of that to gain his ultimate trust in that way. With Harleep yes, the usual way out, it's a good thing the game hasn't yet introduced the obligatory incubus rape of Tav in the form of a cutscene where Tav will suddenly find themselves naked, unarmed, with the face of a victim, and without the ability to throw at least an Athletics check to try to strangle Harleep with their bare hands. But with Astarion, it's an important meaningful romantic scene, a scene that determines the couple's future, it's kind of on a completely different plane than another offer to hook up from some NPS or companion. Even if the author of this romance scene doesn't see the difference between these things, players do, and the complete impossibility of roleplay in this scene may well be frustrating and dumbfounding on first playthrough. The player is more likely to draw parallels to other significant romance scenes where there were different options for roleplay and reactions (the same ability to open consciousness), rather than some brash, albeit unusual, but still just one of the regularly encountered enemies in the game. Astarion could have explained the necessity of the kneeling with a single line like, "It's important to me," which would immediately hint to the untrained player at the sacredness of the ritual, removing the problems with getting through that scene, or at least Astarion could have seen what it really meant to Tav if Tav had been able to open his consciousness at that moment. And at this point, alas, everything leads us to this: Originally Posted by Rongbai "No, he doesn't love you, he thinks you're degrading yourself, and you're not allowed to react" "No, you don't love it, you are terrified of him, and you're not allowed to feel differently" "No, you can't agree to this, he's toxic, you WILL be thought a lesson, and you're not allowed to decide for yourself" In my playthrough, this place was really the only one where a successful check doesn't unlock a new dialog option. I don't know if anyone has been able to find any other place like this in the game, but it seems like it just doesn't exist. Special to Astarion and special to us. Exclusive rails - enjoy the ride. Next stop is Victim of Violence, patch 6. Instead of an RPG, it's a sort of "novella", a "short story" whose characters are Astarion and Tav. Only instead of our character in this story, it's another character invented by someone else, and we have no choice but to go along with someone else's headcanon. At the same time, the game provides an "option" that makes all Astarion-loving players simply angry or bewildered - "kick in the balls". It's just annoying to mention this one in a post even, but in game our eyes have to see this "creativity" every time. Maybe some of the modders will "clean it up" and remove it from the game so that the rails are at least just clean rails, without... I don't know who might be interested in this kind of "roleplay" for, any suggestion to that effect might trigger a reaction along the lines of "Ahh, you're insulting people for using the game feature provided!", so probably for those who like to test the game and just pick all the lines in a row to see what happens. Ok, dear author, you have a very specific "humor" for the "initiated", or for anyone else out there, but why not, if you decided to write THIS, do something for normal, adequate roleplay as well? Originally Posted by LiryFire If, of course, someane in team Larian is guided not by logic but by Tik Tok, fanfics, trends, then understandable. Astarion is dangerous immediately, Astarion is also dangerous as a spawn, “I can cure this manipulative person with the power of love” is a dangerous idea irl. Morality irl “as it should be” is not applicable and is a double standard. It's amazing how a character's reaction to something intimate can be used to make a negative attitude about the entire work of so many people. This is truly amazing. What started out as fanfic ended up as scenes of sadism. From "I want your body" and "I like degrading myself" to the fear, pain, and hurt on the victim's face. The saddest thing is when a person playing the game starts to think: "Maybe I'm just a freak?" because of the scripted arbitrariness of some "author" who decided to "show their story", laying rails through the hearts of players, to destroy everything good that was in the game, to destroy the wonderful, multifaceted and loving image of Astarion, to reduce him to some "model of an abuser and sad*st" for the sake of hype, promotion of some activist views, their own "vision", whatever. "Favorite characters are always the easiest source of emotional engagement for any player." This is a quote from a lecture by one of Larian's authors. This lecture is not directly related to Astarion or BG3, I will put it under a spoiler just as a confirmation of the quote. What should a player get THAT kind of emotional interaction for? Larian, please fix this. Fix the sad*stic kisses of patch 6. You've won BAFTA, that's great. The majority (living in Britain) of players like everything. Please don't leave it to the "minority" to have the game remain in their hearts and memories as the worst romantic scenario in their entire gaming experience. Allow those who think, feel and perceive the game not according to someone else's narrative, but as they saw and perceived it before, to stay in the game and not be "victimized". "Victim of scripted arbitrariness" is not what a player should be in a game that has won every possible award and honor. We trusted you, we supported you, we voted for you once before, we deserve at least basic human treatment. Aeterna Amantes. Lovers forever, until the world falls down. My Love Is Cancelled. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion LiryFire#94299921/05/24 09:10 PM | |
Joined: Feb 2024 KiraMira journeyman | |
KiraMira journeyman Joined: Feb 2024 | Originally Posted by LiryFire Well, more I'm offended from Larian attitude. You're adults and making a game for adults, was it really such a complicated scheme? "Wants nice thing to see". Yes, you're right at the heart of it. Whenever I changed Tav's clothes with colors or combination I always went to kiss Astarion after. Why? Because it was the best animation to look at while I decided if the clothing and makeup matched. If my character design was any good. Now it's only a reminder of how my own RP does not matter. What is the point of dressing up my character to match their personality when I'm not the one deciding my character persona? I can choose everywhere else, the game builds the story of my character through my character action and dialog, the persona I have decided. Now the romance is steered so hard into another character that there is no room for any other interpretation. The kisses is a vital part of the romance. It should be something you want to see again and again, something that makes you smile while it happens. That reminds you of why you chose Astarion and increase the bond you feel between Astarion and Tav. Letting you build the romance up in your mind as the story goes on. You should feel good because romance is something you would feel good about. Why then are these kisses made in to a punishment? And if they are not, why then? Why are the faces like that? Last edited by KiraMira; 22/05/24 09:23 AM. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#94300822/05/24 11:33 AM | |
Joined: Dec 2023 Marielle enthusiast | |
Marielle enthusiast Joined: Dec 2023 | Originally Posted by KiraMira "Wants nice thing to see". Yes, you're right at the heart of it. Whenever I changed Tav's clothes with colors or combination I always went to kiss Astarion after. Why? Because it was the best animation to look at while I decided if the clothing and makeup matched. If my character design was any good. Now it's only a reminder of how my own RP does not matter. What is the point of dressing up my character to match their personality when I'm not the one deciding my character persona? I can choose everywhere else, the game builds the story of my character through my character action and dialog, the persona I have decided. Now the romance is steered so hard into another character that there is no room for any other interpretation. Yeah, that's what I've always done! And when I managed to trophy a cool new armor, I always kissed Astarion first. And changing clothes and picking out outfits for Astarion himself - also "celebrated" with kisses.... - My love, how you and I butchered Raphael! That was some fight! How does the Hell's Sunset set look on me? - You deserve a treat... And on her knees with a face twisted with horror, waiting for something incredibly cruel... Devil Slayer, that's what Helsik would later call this unfortunate victim of domestic violence. - Astarion, look at this suit! We should buy it for you - we've never seen it before, it's a combination of two patterns, very beautiful! Try it on, please... What do you think? I guess he didn't like it, it didn't fit well, because he had to bite me and punch me in the face afterwards. So next time I'll make sure I pick pants that don't pinch. A cringe-worthy mix of RPG with... With whatever they mixed it with. No connection between Astarion and Tav, no connection between story and sad*stic videos, no connection between common sense and logic and being able to play this. Aeterna Amantes. Lovers forever, until the world falls down. My Love Is Cancelled. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Zayir#94302522/05/24 09:07 PM | |
Joined: May 2024 H HoneyAngel_444 stranger | |
HoneyAngel_444 stranger H Joined: May 2024 | Thanks Zayir! I want the option to choose any of the Astarion kisses and not be locked out of any (once they fix Tav's expressions, I will enjoy the Ascended kisses then). I just need a little sugar to balance the salt Sorry messed up the quote formatting. Quote from Zayir: And now seeing the differences in the companion's kisses ingame: The idea of the AA kisses/Astarion's animation really, really fits. I myself only like the kinky AA style (shove, knees, grabbing, examining Tav), and one of Wyll's kiss, the dance, where he is grabbing Tav 's arm and pulling in (and Astarion's patch 5 kiss was nice). The other ones are really lame/tame for my taste and woulnd't fit a dark romance with an evil Vampire. Whatever will happen, I really hope, they will never remove AA's great animations or the kink (shove, forcing Tav on the knees), when you chose "let it hurt", and will just make it consensual.[/quote] |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion HoneyAngel_444#94302622/05/24 09:18 PM | |
Joined: May 2024 S starryophonic journeyman | |
starryophonic journeyman S Joined: May 2024 | Originally Posted by HoneyAngel_444 Thanks Zayir! I want the option to choose any of the Astarion kisses and not be locked out of any (once they fix Tav's expressions, I will enjoy the Ascended kisses then). I just need a little sugar to balance the salt Sorry messed up the quote formatting. Quote from Zayir: And now seeing the differences in the companion's kisses ingame: The idea of the AA kisses/Astarion's animation really, really fits. I myself only like the kinky AA style (shove, knees, grabbing, examining Tav), and one of Wyll's kiss, the dance, where he is grabbing Tav 's arm and pulling in (and Astarion's patch 5 kiss was nice). The other ones are really lame/tame for my taste and woulnd't fit a dark romance with an evil Vampire. Whatever will happen, I really hope, they will never remove AA's great animations or the kink (shove, forcing Tav on the knees), when you chose "let it hurt", and will just make it consensual. [/quote] Saw someone on YT compare AA and Tav to Gomez and Morticia so…petition to add Astarion kissing Tav passionately up the arm. Just kidding. Sort of. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#94305223/05/24 03:47 PM | |
Joined: Dec 2023 Marielle enthusiast | |
Marielle enthusiast Joined: Dec 2023 | Originally Posted by starryophonic Saw someone on YT compare AA and Tav to Gomez and Morticia so…petition to add Astarion kissing Tav passionately up the arm. Yes, it was very, very, very... <3 By the way, yesterday The companion character designer lead at Baldur's Gate 3, Baudelaire Welch, who is working on Baldur's Gate 3 as the romance feature lead gave a lecture "Romance Design in Video Games" at Nordic Game. There's a bit about our Astarion in there too. Not on the topic of this thread, so I've posted the video of the lecture here if anyone is interested. This lecture, in my opinion, is very interesting to listen to. Aeterna Amantes. Lovers forever, until the world falls down. My Love Is Cancelled. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion LiryFire#94312526/05/24 02:44 AM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 DarkAngelBeckons member | |
DarkAngelBeckons member Joined: Nov 2023 | I do really love Gomez and Morticia!! I would rather have that type of obsessive & passionate kisses than what we currently have for the AA path. Otherwise, I do not want to have forced headcanon in a role playiing game, where the characters' stories continue on in my own headcanon. I want to go back to a role playing game that I am playing solo on my computer and decide the story from there since Larian stated they gave the characters to us. They also do not own them. The game is world wide release and there are many different canons. I want a game and expect a game to be the role playing adult (NOT TEENAGER) fantasy where that is possible. No forcing of any particular headcanon on anyone (Or dating advice or whatever your EMPLOYEE was pushing for in her speech). This game was a loosely based D&D role playing fantasy game that is supposed to be fun and entertaining, not something that brings irl Earth problems into my game to trigger, retrigger, or traumatize people who have already lived through irl DV/SA such as the person behind the keyboard. Evil endings do not make someone's personality change for a few moments just to shock a person and then go back to normal. It simply does not fit here, not as the story is presented in the game. To bring it back to our feedback and request on patch 6 destroyed player agency with Astarion. Larian, please: Originally Posted by LiryFire Originally Posted by Marielle To summarize what has been said in the topic under discussion, in my opinion, these are: 1. Completely change Tav's facial expressions. No victim facial expressions. No fear, resentment, or pain. This is mandatory, the game currently contains trigger scenes of violence that traumatize people. 2. Make it possible to choose between romantic kisses (as the patch 5 kiss was) for those who want "gentle" and harder ones ("let it hurt"). A very good option was suggested by Ametris earlier in the " Astarion Romance Improvement" thread - you could not tie the kissing scenes to a single choice during the night after Ascension, but make two lines "Kiss me gently" and "Kiss me roughly". Some will be able to choose their favorite option, some will be able to use all of them, then when they want. 3. Give Tav the ability to touch Astarion, change Tav's animation and body language, not just facial expressions. As we found out, even for D/s this isn't necessary, it's just an option that doesn't suit most AA players. It doesn't suit me personally at all. Tav touched Astarion all the time before, why would Astarion not want it now? It looks like we are once again being "prevented" from loving Astarion by covering this idea with just one, and not the most common, D/s option. + 1 The added animations for the Patch 6 kisses were a miss for many reasons. I will not repeat why, I think you can read just fine why many have issues with them. Give us choices for those animations: Gentle, Rough, or both. Let's make some people happy and they will go back to playing the game. It is Larian's responsibility to fix what they inserted and not do so without thinking of all sides of the situation. It is not something you should force in and would have to change a LOT of dialogue and animations and voice acting to just add this and make it logical. Instead, just go with a more logical choice, and fix it for people to go back to being happy & entertained. I would also like to add the request from another thread that is also forced that even though we have gone through the confession scene, have been waiting patiently for Astarion to decide what he would like out of the romance as far as sex, please change the line about wanting his body. This is not a positive choice and it really doesn't belong here since we have been complying with his wishes. For those who did the confession scene differently, you might have to keep it, yet you railroaded ALL of us instead of thinking of adding more and better options. Make a more positive choice addition, make it make logical sense, and then we will see that you in fact do listen to those of us who play the path of the AA romance without having to change the entire game just to fit in the changes that make no logical sense as of this moment in time. This will at least begin to heal those whom you have hurt in the process and hopefully then allow future players to be satisfied as we once were prior to patch 6, though we had to headcanon a LOT through parts of the story that did not line up, since you ran out of time & are wanting to move on to your other projects. Please Larian, we were happy before the changes that came well after the release that did not fit in the story and were hopefully made due to an error or lack of true understanding of the content you thought you were putting in and failed at. Please look at the other threads for ideas on the dialogue options after ascension that need to add positive choices for role play and also see how Astarion can pull you to the dark side discussion for more understanding. In the end, it is a fantasy romance with a fictional vampire elf (he does not exist irl on Earth). We still love our Astarion. And though you (Larian) have not responded, we are still believing in you. Thank you. #JusticeForAstarion #JusticeForTheRealFansOfTheRomanceWithAstarion |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion matagot#943232Yesterday at 02:47 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 Zayir member | |
Zayir member Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by Sereda2 since the abuse with a romanced A. Astarion only happens if the player requests a kiss, I think it simply serves to show how disjointed Astarion's character became with Patch 6. He communicates with the player quite normally outside of those kisses. Regardless of whether my speculation is right, what Larian have done with Patch 6 is make A.Astarion completely inconsistent as a character. And at the same time, they are railroading the Player Character into being aligned to 'good' and suffering because of their love. Loss of player autonomy should not happen in an RPG and ruining a well-written character just to get another kink on the game's 'bingo card' is completely the wrong direction to go in, in my opinion. I agree! Looking at the lecture of Larian's Romance lead developer, I am asking what the intention of patch 6 could be. Are the patch 6 kisses, as they are now, a kink? A kink would be at least consensual-non consent with the option to stop it, step back, as soon as you feel uncomfortable (you can do it with the bear, too, and you know what is coming and can say "no"), both partners are agreeing. But that's not the case here. Only if the player's character is consenting/show signs of consenting, then the kiss would be a kink. In the kink community, consent is paramount. Originally Posted by Ghostsecurity29 If I am remembering correctly in earlier threads she comes from a fanfic background ? I think Fanfiction ought to just be used as an outlet rather than including peoples fanfic into a game if she went in on the Ascended is bad fanfic pool thinking the majority want this I'd say she's better looking outside of the twitter fanfic cesspool because abuse stories ain't that popular in real life what is popular in fanfic is the enemies to lovers trope not vice versa. a game is supposed to be an escape point where you should be having fun . Yep. Would be a bad, bad fanfic pool. Or poorly executed kink fanfiction. But: Romance lead developer, Larian: 《So, take the bear scene from Baldur's Gate 3. Why did it make such an impact? (...) Players in the fan fiction communities had been joking for years post-Early Access about the different degenerate things they wanted to do with Druid Daddy Halsin, and we gave them an incredibly silly scene which takes an identity moniker from the gay community literally. The gay bear becomes the gay bear. I am not well versed in CrackFic, but Wiki tells me: "A work of fan fiction that is absurd, surprising or ridiculous, often intentionally." Was the idea for Tav's behaviour from Crackfic, rather than non-con fanfiction? Was the intention to make "absurd" crackfic kisses? Is it common to make 100 % non-con fantasy / sexual violence scenes in Crackfics? The kiss scene may be absurd (especially because it's not consistent and storywise how Tav behaves) and sursprising (more in a negative sense), but it is not ridiculous or funny, at least for the players who let their character romance Astarion and got harmed or felt uncomfortable by seeing non-con/sexual violence fantasy/paraphilia. There is a reason why non-con sex fantasies and rape are only available in some corners of the internet and not in a mainstream game (at least if Larian wanted to include noncon fantasies and sexual violence, there need to be a description,/rating that it contains sexual violence for reasons, which it has not. Might also be the reason why Larian doesn't show the sexual act with the bear. Could be uncomfortable for some players to see it (the zoophilia). At least for the unseen bear act the players still have the possibility to step back, if they can't bear the bear.) So what do we have in patch 6? It's not a BDSM or kink Fanfiction (only a part of it), it's not a crackfic (I assume, or maybe someone knows better). What could it be? An attempt to make players feel bad? 《 In this dialogue, I directly wanted to make the player feel bad for having learned the mentality of click-the-right-dialogue-options-to-get-sex-in-video-games (...)》 To let them know how it feels to be cheated or abused? 《There are so many types of challenging relationship issues that exist out there in the real world, but we've just never seen depicted in games.(...) When have you ever been cheated on? When has a character ever come to you and told you that they think the spark has gone from your relationship? When has a character's mental health suffered from being in a relationship? When have you ever been gaslit? When have you ever seen your partner become abusive?(...) Originally Posted by KiraMira You should feel good because romance is something you would feel good about. Originally Posted by starryophonic They actually said they to make the players feel bad? They want to introduce abusive situations into video games? That's so disheartening to think that someone would be put in charge of an aspect of a game that means so much to so many people, and then gleefully brag about making it less pleasant. To what end? Mx. Welch, if you're somehow reading this, I respectfully think you've woefully misinterpreted what players want in a video game romance, particularly when it comes to Baldur's Gate. We're not asking for our every whim to be met. We're simply asking for a fun experience where our characters are allowed to act and react in ways that make sense +1 Tav but absolutely not! Tav is from 100 % non-con sexual violence fantasies/paraphilia (I want to add: Tav / or this scene is also not from a realistic abuse or domestic violence, because no victim of sexual violence would behave like Tav, who is showing signs of enjoyment during the kneeling kiss, but non-con before and after, the same with the bite kiss, tav wouldn't make an attempt to kiss their offender in reallife situation!! In domestic violence, Astarion wouldn't ask Tav to kneel either! This is not realistic abuse, Tav's non-con behaviour (especially Tav's sad and disgusted faces) is abuse fantasies (!) of people who are watching this scene or think themselves in the shoes of Astarion=in the shoes of an offender!). These 100 % non-con kisses/Tav (sexual abuse fantasy but in the form (!) of BDSM = kneeling, shove, grabbing) are a disservice to the BDSM community (!!) My question to Larian or the romance lead developer is: Should be assumed, the kisses should make players, including BDSM lovers, feel bad? With using BDSM elements against them? Sorry, i am just curious. Because if the intention was to make players feel bad (when players feel "bad" while playing a game, most of us quit playing, by the way) or to show how the partner realistic (?) "abuses" the character in relationships, then why there was a need to add kneeling, grabbing and a playful shove from the reallife kink community? Using BDSM elements and turn them into victim / non-con fantasies in a kiss to make the players (including the BDSM community) feel bad [infact also harming, causing depressions and PTSD flashbacks to survivors of abuse] or to show "abuse" in relationships is gross. More than gross. Very questionable. In my opinion. Changing the player's character into consenting would be appreciated for many reasons. “I would, thank God, watch the universe perish without shedding a tear.” |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Zayir#943237Yesterday at 04:35 PM | |
Joined: Mar 2024 Natasy journeyman | |
Natasy journeyman Joined: Mar 2024 | Originally Posted by starryophonic They actually said they to make the players feel bad? They want to introduce abusive situations into video games? That's so disheartening to think that someone would be put in charge of an aspect of a game that means so much to so many people, and then gleefully brag about making it less pleasant. To what end? Mx. Welch, if you're somehow reading this, I respectfully think you've woefully misinterpreted what players want in a video game romance, particularly when it comes to Baldur's Gate. We're not asking for our every whim to be met. We're simply asking for a fun experience where our characters are allowed to act and react in ways that make sense +1 This developer has a BA in Liberal Arts. They do not have a PhD in psychology. The desire to make only their female/queer audience feel bad about their sexual desires (is this the 1800's?), and to "punish" them via simulating abuse (bold of you to assume your audience has not experienced such harsh 'lessons' in their real life already) is really gross. It's literally the "you deserve this" logic. How did this pass quality control with Larian? Punishing women for the their lusts? Really? Assuming that we even *choose* those options based off of our lusts, and not our own personal RP desires and storytelling. I just wanted to have fun and be evil. But Larian won't let me because I'm a woman who had sexy thoughts about a pixel man and I need to be taught a lesson? This is 2024! Women and queer players have more thoughts in their brain besides sinful sex that needs to be punished. What in the purity culture is this? Larian, get some quality control and treat your female and queer audience with some respect. This situation is going to age like milk. EDIT to add onto what @Ghost said. Using that as a basis for writing canon material... actually explains a lot of why the writing feels so inconsistent. And is a perfect example of why it's not a good idea. Last edited by Natasy; Yesterday at 07:06 PM. |
Re: Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion Zayir#943239Yesterday at 06:13 PM | |
Joined: Feb 2024 Sereda2 journeyman | |
Sereda2 journeyman Joined: Feb 2024 | Originally Posted by Zayir Are these kisses, as they are now, a kink? A kink would be at least consensual-non consent with the option to stop it, step back, as soon as you feel uncomfortable ... It looks like I was careless with my terminology (sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm on a bit of a learning curve here). I definitely did not want to give the impression that the Patch 6 Kisses depict BDSM rather than A.Astarion abusing the Player Character. I think we discussed earlier the type of p*rn the kisses resemble earlier in this thread, and I understand that they are definitely not what fans who are into BDSM would want to see. So, apologies for giving the wrong impression in my post. Originally Posted by Ghostsecurity29 I think Fanfiction ought to just be used as an outlet rather than including peoples fanfic into a game if she went in on the Ascended is bad fanfic pool thinking the majority want this I'd say she's better looking outside of the twitter fanfic cesspool because abuse stories ain't that popular in real life what is popular in fanfic is the enemies to lovers trope not vice versa. a game is supposed to be an escape point where you should be having fun . I couldn't agree more. I think also that this is doing a disservice to fan-fic writers as there is a lot of fan art out there which is actually SFW. Interestingly, there is a thread on Reddit today and another on my Discord both arguing that it would have been nice if the playerbase could have had a relationship with the NPCs that wasn't totally based on sex, ie: a platonic friendship. Both threads got quite a bit of support. Originally Posted by Zayir There is a reason why non-con sex fantasies and rape are only available in some corners of the internet and not in a mainstream game (at least if Larian wanted to include noncon fantasies and sexual violence, there need to be a description,/rating that it contains sexual violence for reasons, which it has not... 100% Agreed. I really hope Larian consider this rather than waiting to see if an official complaint is made. Originally Posted by KiraMira You should feel good because romance is something you would feel good about. Absolutely a romance should be fun, not a slice of real life in it's worst form. Originally Posted by starryophonic They actually said they to make the players feel bad? They want to introduce abusive situations into video games? That's so disheartening to think that someone would be put in charge of an aspect of a game that means so much to so many people, and then gleefully brag about making it less pleasant. To what end? Mx. Welch, if you're somehow reading this, I respectfully think you've woefully misinterpreted what players want in a video game romance, particularly when it comes to Baldur's Gate. We're not asking for our every whim to be met. We're simply asking for a fun experience where our characters are allowed to act and react in ways that make sense I agree 100% Just leap the flames to take a chance... |
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